Here's a comparison of young male, female and older male phenotypes from Northern and Southern Italy. For the latter two, where there were a lot of image series to choose from, Sicily was selected to represent the south because it's the southernmost region as well as the most maligned, and Veneto was used for the north because it's a populous region that's
much less likely than Lombardy or Piedmont to have recent southern influences. Of course, once that decision was made, all applicable photos were included.
It's well-known by now that the idea of a north-south racial divide in Italy is complete nonsense, but it was still surprising just how similar the composites came out. One might expect at least a difference comparable to that observed between Germans and Swedes or Poles and Ukrainians (see the
Caucasoid composites), but that didn't turn out to be the case at all. The similarities are indeed quite striking. Another nail in the coffin of
Padanian Nordicism.
Related: More Italian Facial Composites
7 comments
Andreos
The idea of racial divide of Italy is not nonsense - i dont understand, how and who maked out idea, that in Italy are no north-south differences in population. In Italy are differences
1.in IQ - lower in the south, higher in the north - for expample IQ 89 in Sicily vs 103 in Friuli-Venezia. This is almost one standard deviation. In 12 regions in Italy is this tendention - higher IQ in the north and lower in the south,
2.in social status, education, etc. - there was found high corelation between IQ and this parameters - r=0,937,
3.in the economic level - north is far richer and more advanced,
4.in mentality - thus for expample corruption and criminality - for expample mafia in the Intalian south is widely known.
And background of this differences is racial and genetical. North Italians are higher and lighter (Alpines and Nordic germanic/celtic influence), south Intalians are mixed with populations from the North Africa and Near East.
And there are gentical differneces, too. For expample there are nort-south differences in Y-haplogroups - in the south is higher incidence of Semitic, Mesopotamian, Arabic, Middle Eastern, Near Eastern and North African haplogroups (E1b1b, J1,
J2).
And vice-versa, in the south is much more lower incidence of the
R1b (Italo-Celtic, Germanic)
haplogroup - 50-80% in the north, 20-30% in the south.
And in light of anthropology, there is a strong difference in incidence of light hair in Italy -7,5-20 and more % in the north, 7,4-2,4 and a less % in the south.
I see we have another pathetic Padanian Nordicist who's very misinformed and behind the times. You should know by now that those figures from Lynn aren't real IQs. And that E3b and J aren't "Semitic" or "Arabic" haplogroups. And that R1b isn't "Celtic" or "Germanic". And that Northern Italians are Alpine, Dinaric and Mediterranean, not "Nordic". You should also get your eyes checked, because the facial composites above show no "racial divide" in Italy, and neither do these.
Andreos
1.I am not a Nordicist - where I said, that Nordics are a superior race??
2.So - figures from Lynn "are not real". OK - and where are real figures? Real figures for you are only figures, which show no differnences, won t you? Yes, this is typical political correct dogma - there must be no genetical differences betwen population groups. But this is only an egalitarian dogma like dogmas from religion and not a real fact. And when somebody says something different like Lynn, you must find arguments against him - at any cost, but these arguments are weak or absurd, as I said in section about Lynn and IQ in Italy. In Italy are strong north-south differences in IQ, thats simply fact.
3.The main subracial element in north Italy is Alpine sub-racial type. Yes, there is some dinaric and mediterranean influence - I didnt refer this, because this is only a detail. I have never said, that northern Italians are Nordics - I only said that here is some nordic (celtic/germanic) influence.
In the light of anthropology, there are clear differences. According Coon: "... the southern Italians are a blend fot he most pat of Alpines and small Mediterraneans ..."
But Mediterraneans in the south and in the north are different - small Med. vs Atlanto-Med.
" ... among the northern Italians the most important dolichochepalic strain is the Atlanto-Mediterranean."
The north is racially different - for example a study from Bologna: "In the population of the Bolognese there is a strong prevalence of Alpine and Dinaric types (...)."
And tehere is some nordic influence, often in higher classes: "The few unaltered Nordics still found in northern Italy and in aristocratic families elsewhere are far outnumbered by Atlanto-Mediterraneans."
"There is a slight linkage between
the lightest hair and eye colors and dolichcephaly, indicating that a Nordic type has preserved his identity as a minor element here."
Pigmentation in the north Italy is different, although not a lot: "The pigmenattion is lighter than in southern Italy, but sill prevailing brunet."
I already mentioned differences in incidence of fair hair between north and south Italy.
Coon summarize:
"The southern Italians, as this survey will indicate, are a distinctive group of people who will not fall in any one of known recognized racial cathegory."
"No country in Europe (...) shows a greater diversity of race between of its southern and its northern extremities than does Italy."
4.To the italian faces - this is not relevant criterion, whereon we can make definite conclusions.
5.According http://eupedia.com
E1b1b - North African, Near Eastern, Balcanic
J1 - Caucasian, Mesopotamian, Semitic (Arabian, Jewish)
J2 - Greco-Anatolian, Mesopotamian, Caucasian
R1b - Italo-Celtic, Germanic and also Hittie, Armenian, Tocharian
>>> In Italy are strong north-south differences in IQ, thats simply fact.
Nope. No evidence for that:
http://italianthro.blogspot.com/2010/10/richard-lynn-further-refuted.html
>>> The main subracial element in north Italy is Alpine sub-racial type. Yes, there is some dinaric and mediterranean influence - I didnt refer this, because this is only a detail.
The North is about 1/3 Alpine, 1/3 Dinaric (which is a Mediterranean derivative), and 1/3 Mediterranean. The South is about 1/2 Alpine and 1/2 Mediterranean. That's very similar, and it explains why the facial composites all look so much alike.
>>> "No country in Europe (...) shows a greater diversity of race between of its southern and its northern extremities than does Italy."
That statement is quoted from Ripley and based solely on cephalic index, which he though was a racial characteristic. Coon knew better but retained the line by mistake. Read this:
http://italianthro.blogspot.com/2011/08/coons-bizarre-conclusion-explained.html
As far as IQ rates, the Northern Italians should make effort in leveling the IQ rate in all Italy. They way you're stating things are that the Northern Italians are superior to the Southern Italians because of the mafias, colors and etc. That's what I got from it and they're all the same to me. And if that's not the message you're sending out then I suggest you change it.
I'm not an advocate of padanian nonsense secessionism: I don't endorse a line of that shameful post nor am I a genetist but I do know for direct experience, being italian, that a variance does exist throughout italian peninsula. There have been many population's stratifications, ancient and recent which contributed to occasional but significative variance on our territory. That's why we
have a strong presence of bilinguism (italian-french in Valle d'Aosta and Italian-German in South Tyrol: http://www.suedtirol.info/it/) Ladin is spoken throughout the Dolomites mountains and Furlan and Slovenian in Friuli (http://www.lingue.regione.fvg.it/minor/welcome.htm). As you see. much of Northern Italy is interspaced with linguistic and ethnic traces from ancient times. The historically proven and deep rooted presence of the Gaulish tribes in Veneto could serve as an example. The most recent settlement is perhaps that of the Longobardians in Italy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards). For what the italian soccer players are concerned why did you chose the most italian looking of all? He sure is representative, as we see many faces like that here in Italy but our sparse albeit significative minorities have not been taken into account. (Look at Montolivo or De Rossi soccer playesr, for example, more respresentative of a northern italian). I don't want to sound polemic, but have you ever been to Italy, like Veneto, South Tyrol, Friuli? It might be interesting to notice the descendants of those ancient tribes strolling down the streets or drinking an espresso. With the same stupor I observed the clear descendants of the old Norseman walking by my side in the city of Palermo or Catania when I went down to Sicily (their genetic influence might be null but they're still there, I can assure you with a certain degree of certainty because my father is one of them). Just my two cents...
Regards,
Anna
^ Montolivo is half German and De Rossi is from Rome (though his surname might be northern).
Anyway, composites do take minority types into account. But those soccer player composites aren't very good. I made better ones with much larger samples:
http://italianthro.blogspot.com/2011/07/soccer-player-facial-composites.html
They do show some small regional variation:
http://italianthro.blogspot.com/2011/12/regional-soccer-player-composites.html
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